HomeAre property legal descriptions, eg, the tie line from a base point followed by the bearings and lengths of the boundaries, publicly accessible? Do I need permission from the land owner to get the legal description?
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Property legal descriptions
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2 Re: Property legal descriptions Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:01 pm
Lunkan
Reclusion Perpetua
(I suppouse you mean property which has a title. Them with only "Rights" I don't know.)
I don't know if the public is allowed to LOOK in the register - I guess it would risk to be to crowded
but you can ORDER to get the information on paper. I don't know what you get then, but I suppouse the information you want is included.
You don't need permission from owner.
I don't know if the public is allowed to LOOK in the register - I guess it would risk to be to crowded
but you can ORDER to get the information on paper. I don't know what you get then, but I suppouse the information you want is included.
You don't need permission from owner.
3 Re: Property legal descriptions Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:44 pm
jaxt
Arresto Menor
Yes, the properties are titled. I'm dealing with DENR, I submitted my request including lot numbers, survey numbers and owners' names. My request was denied, telling me that I needed power of attorney granted by the property owners. I don't mean to be argumentative, but can you tell me the basis for the information you're giving me? Telling DENR "some guy on the internet said . . ." probably won't give me much traction. I'm foreigner living under PRA visa. I lease a property for myself. I employ a helper, and he and his family live in a separate house on this property that I lease. In order to provide for him and his family after I'm gone (I'm 70 years old), I gifted him a parcel of farmland. It has no direct access, and so I'm trying to establish right of way to his property. Having the legal descriptions of the neighbors will assist me in gaining an access route because then I can plot the various properties on google maps. Aside from my peace of mind knowing that my helper's family will be able to enjoy their farm, I will not benefit from assuring access to his property.
4 Re: Property legal descriptions Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:31 am
betchay001
Reclusion Perpetua
jaxt wrote:Yes, the properties are titled. I'm dealing with DENR, I submitted my request including lot numbers, survey numbers and owners' names. My request was denied, telling me that I needed power of attorney granted by the property owners. I don't mean to be argumentative, but can you tell me the basis for the information you're giving me? Telling DENR "some guy on the internet said . . ." probably won't give me much traction. I'm foreigner living under PRA visa. I lease a property for myself. I employ a helper, and he and his family live in a separate house on this property that I lease. In order to provide for him and his family after I'm gone (I'm 70 years old), I gifted him a parcel of farmland. It has no direct access, and so I'm trying to establish right of way to his property. Having the legal descriptions of the neighbors will assist me in gaining an access route because then I can plot the various properties on google maps. Aside from my peace of mind knowing that my helper's family will be able to enjoy their farm, I will not benefit from assuring access to his property.
Let's see...
The technical description is found on the titles of the properties. To get a certified true copy of the titles, you need a photocopy of the titles themselves (even only the first page). Since you were able to get lot numbers/survey numbers and owners' names, can you ask for a photocopy of the first page of the titles so you can order a certified true copy of the titles (from the Registry of Deeds). If not, (the owners don't want you to have copies) let's move on to the next option.
Your next option is to find the owner of the lot you bought for your helper. How do they get to the lot?
If there is no direct access to the lot, how are you able to reach it? There must be a narrow road somewhere from the main road to it.
What you can do is check it out, and ask to buy a right of way from the property in front of it (or wherever is NEAREST to the road). You won't need technical descriptions. The owner of the lot you bought this from will know who to approach.
A right of way is NOT freely given but based on appraised value/just compensation. They will not be able to legally refuse selling you a right of way.
5 Re: Property legal descriptions Sat Dec 26, 2015 4:34 pm
jaxt
Arresto Menor
The yellow balloon is a bridge. Lot 1 has 5 blue corners and borders on the NE and NW along the river right of way. (Not sure that's the correct term.) Lot 2 has four blue corners and has no designated owner. Lot 3 has 6 corners, 4 blue and 2 green. The lot with 5 green balloons is my helper's lot, and the top-most boundary is 278m long. The 2 red balloons are monuments that we found during hours of exploring; they don't fit any of the property descriptions. We used to drive across the bridge from the north, then along the pathway that is partly off (top two thirds) and partly on Lot 1, and then in a nearly straight line to the green lot. The occupier of Lot 1 has recently built fences along the path way, even that portion of the pathway that is in the river right of way, making it more difficult to get in. Is he allowed to construct fences on the river right of way? The occupier of Lot 1 has a chicken farm. My helper's neighbor just to the east of him is trying to open communications with the occupier of Lot 1, though I don't think he's a problem; we can simply clear a pathway along the river bank. The reason I want more property descriptions (especially across the river from Lot 1) is so that I can get a clear picture of the river right of way. The tax maps (which are not to be scaled, but none the less must have some degree of accuracy) show the river right of way to be about 70m wide.
6 Re: Property legal descriptions Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:37 pm
Lunkan
Reclusion Perpetua
" I don't mean to be argumentative, but can you tell me the basis for the information you're giving me? "
I just did read about problems and solutions 1-2 years ago. I don't remember more than it was told it was possible. There are cases when owner is hostile/dead/not available, so it need to be possible somehow.
" I'm dealing with DENR, I submitted my request including lot numbers, survey numbers and owners' names. My request was denied, telling me that I needed power of attorney granted by the property owners. "
Perhaps DENR MISSUNDERSTOOD?
You DON'T want the copy, which can REPLACE a lost TITLE. (This can be used for scam sellings, so not odd such need approval from owner.)
You ONLY want a copy of the "MAP" showing the survey border points.
Have you checked with the barangay? Perhaps the bridge is public.
Can't you just ask the neighnour?
I just did read about problems and solutions 1-2 years ago. I don't remember more than it was told it was possible. There are cases when owner is hostile/dead/not available, so it need to be possible somehow.
" I'm dealing with DENR, I submitted my request including lot numbers, survey numbers and owners' names. My request was denied, telling me that I needed power of attorney granted by the property owners. "
Perhaps DENR MISSUNDERSTOOD?
You DON'T want the copy, which can REPLACE a lost TITLE. (This can be used for scam sellings, so not odd such need approval from owner.)
You ONLY want a copy of the "MAP" showing the survey border points.
Have you checked with the barangay? Perhaps the bridge is public.
Can't you just ask the neighnour?
7 Re: Property legal descriptions Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:01 am
jaxt
Arresto Menor
"Perhaps DENR MISSUNDERSTOOD?"
In the recent past I simply submitted a letter of request saying I want technical descriptions of several lots. They complied, charging me P100/lot. My most recent (third) request, with identical format to previous requests, was flatly denied, stating that I needed PoA from the owners. After studying the results of two of the descriptions that DENR provided, I pointed out problems with tie lines: they would put you in the middle of Honda Bay, just north of Puerto Princesa City. He went back to the Big Book that contains the tech descriptions and verified that he did not make a transcription error. I didn't make a big deal about it, but I'm sure his feathers were ruffled. I have discovered another problem that I'm remaining mum about: the bearings for the 21+km long tie lines are given to the nearest minute. Well, if you draw a triangle with two sides 21km long separated by an angle of one minute, the third side is 6.1 meters long. This means an uncertainty of +/- three meters for the actual location of monument #1. Some lots in my small sample overlap by as much as four meters, in a direction perpendicular to the tie line, and therefore attributable to that uncertainty.
"Can't you just ask the neighbor?" I will do that, thanks for the suggestion.
"Have you checked with the barangay? Perhaps the bridge is public." Barangay says that the bridge is private, which brings up another question: can a private person build a structure on public land (the right of way for the Maranat River) and then deny the use of that structure to other property owners? So far he's not doing that, but he is building fences to deny us access to the river bank.
A hooded pita is calling outside, and I will try to get a picture of this shy bird.
In the recent past I simply submitted a letter of request saying I want technical descriptions of several lots. They complied, charging me P100/lot. My most recent (third) request, with identical format to previous requests, was flatly denied, stating that I needed PoA from the owners. After studying the results of two of the descriptions that DENR provided, I pointed out problems with tie lines: they would put you in the middle of Honda Bay, just north of Puerto Princesa City. He went back to the Big Book that contains the tech descriptions and verified that he did not make a transcription error. I didn't make a big deal about it, but I'm sure his feathers were ruffled. I have discovered another problem that I'm remaining mum about: the bearings for the 21+km long tie lines are given to the nearest minute. Well, if you draw a triangle with two sides 21km long separated by an angle of one minute, the third side is 6.1 meters long. This means an uncertainty of +/- three meters for the actual location of monument #1. Some lots in my small sample overlap by as much as four meters, in a direction perpendicular to the tie line, and therefore attributable to that uncertainty.
"Can't you just ask the neighbor?" I will do that, thanks for the suggestion.
"Have you checked with the barangay? Perhaps the bridge is public." Barangay says that the bridge is private, which brings up another question: can a private person build a structure on public land (the right of way for the Maranat River) and then deny the use of that structure to other property owners? So far he's not doing that, but he is building fences to deny us access to the river bank.
A hooded pita is calling outside, and I will try to get a picture of this shy bird.
8 Re: Property legal descriptions Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:46 am
Lunkan
Reclusion Perpetua
Well. There is a basic law saying lot owner without connection to public road has right to get right of way a CLOSE way, for a fair COMPENSATION to the land owner.
So perhaps Lot 1 owner can claim there is some shorter way than over his land. (I don't see at the map where the closest public road is.)
Does he build fence ALONG the river too or only TO the river? If he build along the river, it will not cost him any much difference if having the access road OUTSIDE the fence...
I understand Lot 1 owner don't want people moving around inside the fence when he has chicken business,
but if the access road is outside the fence, then I suppouse he can be open for negotiation.
IF it can't be solved by negotiation, then ask the Barangay Captain for assistance. If he is fair, he will solve it fair.
NOTE! If Lot 1 owner and barangay Captain don't know allready it's a FOREIGNER involved, then you better let your FILIPINO caretaker discus with them WITHOUT telling you are involved. (If needed assisted by a Filipino, who don't know about you either.) Many Filipinos are fair undepending of if they know of you or not, but many others give "kano discount" (=ask much MORE from foreigners). It can be a huge difference, so I would try to avoid risking it if possible.
So perhaps Lot 1 owner can claim there is some shorter way than over his land. (I don't see at the map where the closest public road is.)
Does he build fence ALONG the river too or only TO the river? If he build along the river, it will not cost him any much difference if having the access road OUTSIDE the fence...
I understand Lot 1 owner don't want people moving around inside the fence when he has chicken business,
but if the access road is outside the fence, then I suppouse he can be open for negotiation.
IF it can't be solved by negotiation, then ask the Barangay Captain for assistance. If he is fair, he will solve it fair.
NOTE! If Lot 1 owner and barangay Captain don't know allready it's a FOREIGNER involved, then you better let your FILIPINO caretaker discus with them WITHOUT telling you are involved. (If needed assisted by a Filipino, who don't know about you either.) Many Filipinos are fair undepending of if they know of you or not, but many others give "kano discount" (=ask much MORE from foreigners). It can be a huge difference, so I would try to avoid risking it if possible.
9 Re: Property legal descriptions Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:30 am
jaxt
Arresto Menor
I'm aware of "kano discount", and am trying to stay in the background, out of sight.
"Does he build fence ALONG the river too or only TO the river?" As near as I can tell, he constructed the fence outside his property and onto the land designated as the Maranat River.
On this tax map I've shown the river as blue. The dashed black line is paved National Highway. My helper's lot is grey with the balloon descriptor. Presently we drive in from the north along the red line.
There is another potential way in from the east. I can drive my four wheel drive Mitsubishi military jeep to the end of the red lines, though I have to cross a river that during the rainy season will be impassable. The barangay tells me that if I pay for the diesel fuel they will push the road the rest of the way, along the green line. I can see the road on the satellite maps just as far as I can drive, at which point the road vanishes in the satellite images. That green road can also come from the south, but a major river crossing is involve. My helper's neighbor due east says she will cooperate in granting access. All the neighbors are concerned about access.
"Does he build fence ALONG the river too or only TO the river?" As near as I can tell, he constructed the fence outside his property and onto the land designated as the Maranat River.
On this tax map I've shown the river as blue. The dashed black line is paved National Highway. My helper's lot is grey with the balloon descriptor. Presently we drive in from the north along the red line.
There is another potential way in from the east. I can drive my four wheel drive Mitsubishi military jeep to the end of the red lines, though I have to cross a river that during the rainy season will be impassable. The barangay tells me that if I pay for the diesel fuel they will push the road the rest of the way, along the green line. I can see the road on the satellite maps just as far as I can drive, at which point the road vanishes in the satellite images. That green road can also come from the south, but a major river crossing is involve. My helper's neighbor due east says she will cooperate in granting access. All the neighbors are concerned about access.
10 Re: Property legal descriptions Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:49 pm
Lunkan
Reclusion Perpetua
Oh. Perhaps he can claim the shortest connection to public road just tough his land in WEST. But no bridge there.
Is anything of the red marked road your caretaker use now a public = barangay road?
Oh the barangay have given an alternative allready. Is that cost at a level you can find ok?
When thinking of road alternatives, then it's a question which of them is best for YOU too You say they are caretakers assisting you, so which is best route for them to reach you? And do you need it yourself?
Is anything of the red marked road your caretaker use now a public = barangay road?
Oh the barangay have given an alternative allready. Is that cost at a level you can find ok?
When thinking of road alternatives, then it's a question which of them is best for YOU too
You say they are caretakers assisting you, so which is best route for them to reach you? And do you need it yourself?11 Re: Property legal descriptions Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:16 am
jaxt
Arresto Menor
Lunkan wrote:My responses in red
Oh. Perhaps he can claim the shortest connection to public road just tough his land in WEST. But no bridge there.
Is anything of the red marked road your caretaker use now a public = barangay road?
The tax map shows the public road starting at the National Highway, heading south, and ending across the river from the half-moon lot just west of Lot #1. But that's not how the pathway runs on the ground. It goes as shown red on the above tax map. The tax assessor tells us that any road shown on the tax map is public, but the actual road does not follow the tax map. So, I'm not sure whether it's public road all the way to the bridge.
Oh the barangay have given an alternative allready. Is that cost at a level you can find ok?
Barangay gave no amount for diesel fuel required for clearing the road from the east.
When thinking of road alternatives, then it's a question which of them is best for YOU too
None of this is for me, it's all for my helper and his family when I'm gone. We plan on going there Wednesday to discuss this with neighbors. There are squabbles between some of the neighbors, someone's cow is destroying plants. This is becoming something of a soap opera.
12 Re: Property legal descriptions Mon Dec 28, 2015 4:16 pm
Lunkan
Reclusion Perpetua
"Barangay gave no amount for diesel fuel required for clearing the road from the east. "
Perhaps interesting to get an estimate. Is it hard to build a road the green route?
Isn't is election time soon for barangays too? Perhaps a candidate want to contribute
"None of this is for me, it's all for my helper and his family when I'm gone. "
Yes, but is any biger difference for them going the red or green best to go to you when you are still alive?
Perhaps interesting to get an estimate. Is it hard to build a road the green route?
Isn't is election time soon for barangays too? Perhaps a candidate want to contribute
"None of this is for me, it's all for my helper and his family when I'm gone. "
Yes, but is any biger difference for them going the red or green best to go to you when you are still alive?
13 Re: Property legal descriptions Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:46 am
jaxt
Arresto Menor
Is there any opinion on whether a private person can construct a bridge on public property, and then deny others the right to use that bridge? Ditto for erecting fences on the river right of way? I'm told he can shoot me on sight if he thinks I'm trespassing. I want to find his property monuments, but getting shot doesn't interest me at all.
Last edited by jaxt on Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional comments/question)
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